As my final contribution to JWN, I just found this excellent article. I think it sums things up nicely, here are a few of the key points..
"[1. Animal suffering is due to the fall of Adam]
...The problem with both of these variations is why should animals be punished for what man did? It seems grossly unfair and unkind to subject them to such terrible suffering for something that was totally beyond their control.
[2. Animal suffering is due to the evil influence of demons and Satan.]
...The problem with this view is well expressed by Richard Kingston:
If God entrusted to fallible angelic beings such absolute control over creation that it was within their power to "brutalize" the animal kingdom for all time, then he cannot be exonerated from all culpability for what allegedly happened. Must we not go further and say that such action would indicate either incompetence or the fact that the sufferings of the lower creatures are unimportant in eyes of the Creator? (Animals and Christianity, p. 74 cited by Loftus, p. 251).
[3. Animals really do NOT suffer]
...Science has conclusively shown that animals do in fact feel pain and experience the emotions of fear and anxiety as well. An omniscient God would have known this when he created the animal kingdom so the only conclusion one can draw is that he simply doesn't care about their suffering.
[4. and 5. God is indifferent to animal suffering]
...The problem with this view is that it is repugnant to man's moral sensibilities. It would make God no different from those, like Michael Vick, who run dog-fighting rings. If what Vick did was morally disgusting, then what the Creator has done on a much larger scale is even more disgusting."
http://formerfundy.blogspot.com/2010/05/christian-delusion-chapter-nine.html
defender of truth
JoinedPosts by defender of truth
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754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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defender of truth
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754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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defender of truth
Last Bttt.
Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
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754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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defender of truth
"I could not have slept tonight if I had left that helpless little creature to perish on the ground." (Reply to friends who chided him for delaying them by stopping to return a fledgling to its nest.)
~ Abraham Lincoln
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[ Spot the difference between the above quote and Jehovah's tender compassion for defenseless creatures... ]
Genesis 7:21
" And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark." -
754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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defender of truth
BTTT for anyone who is interested
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Watchtower encouraging members to go and preach in Israel
by wannaexit inan odd letter was read at last nights' meeting.
it was in regards to a special campaign for next year arranged by the governing body to go and preach in israel.
the call is going out to anybody that speaks hebrew and english.
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defender of truth
"The U.S. Department of State reveals in its 2012 Report on International Religious Freedom regarding Israel and the Occupied Territories that while "the country's laws and policies provide for religious freedom and the government generally respected religious freedom in practice," that attitude among Jews toward missionary activities and conversations were negative.
"Most Jews opposed missionary activity directed at Jews, and some were hostile to Jewish converts to Christianity," according to the State Department's report. "Messianic Jews and Jehovah's Witnesses were harassed regularly by Yad L'Achim and Lev L'Achim, Jewish religious organizations opposed to missionary activity."
http://christianpost.com/news/christian-persecution-in-hostile-israel-highlighted-by-evangelical-group-some-may-disagree-and-even-take-offense-says-nonprofit--113877/ -
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Wales - ITV Report: JWs sex abuse victims call for organisation to be held accountable
by AndersonsInfo initv report (wales).
29 september 2014 at 6:00am.
jehovahs witness sex abuse victims call for organisation to be held accountable.
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defender of truth
BTTT for any who missed this.
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Vermont Sisters Sue Jehovah's Witnesses For Child Sex Abuse
by Watchtower-Free inhttp://digital.vpr.net/post/vermont-sisters-sue-jehovahs-witnesses-child-sex-abuse.
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defender of truth
Punk, good point.
"This is a civil suit, but the mom says she talked to police. We did confirm with state police that they investigated the case back in 1996 and forwarded it to the Windham County state's attorney at the time, Dan Davis. Davis told WCAX News that he cannot recall the case and couldn't say why charges weren't filed."
http://www.wcax.com/story/26665831/child-sex-abuse-lawsuit-filed-against-vt-jehovahs-witnesses -
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Wales - ITV Report: JWs sex abuse victims call for organisation to be held accountable
by AndersonsInfo initv report (wales).
29 september 2014 at 6:00am.
jehovahs witness sex abuse victims call for organisation to be held accountable.
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defender of truth
Thanks Barbara.
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754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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defender of truth
If you are the thinking type of believer in God, please read the following article. Here's a quote from it:
"Is God guilty of animal cruelty?
Many diseases and defects are endemic to specific kinds of animals.
It’s almost as if predation and accidents alone were not enough suffering, so God designed specialized bacteria, viruses, parasites and diseases to multiply the suffering of animals.
Take, for example, the Tasmanian Devil we discussed earlier. Even at birth, his odds of dying outnumber his odds of surviving. Those that do survive are more than likely to contract Devil Facial Tumour Disease, a fatal contagious cancer that causes large growths on the devil’s face, making it difficult for them to eat or see, and putting the entire species at risk of extinction.
Why? Have they done something to offend God? Did they eat of the forbidden fruit? Does their suffering help increase their faith? Or help them to experience the full extent of free will?"
http://500questions.wordpress.com/2013/01/27/42-why-does-god-allow-animals-to-suffer/ -
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The Bible Teach book illustration about the child having to be put through a painful operation
by defender of truth inhad you going there for a minute ;).
now you're here... there are several problems with that illustration, as i see it.. ..... 1) god is the one who inflicted the life threatening ailment that requires an operation.
(he supposedly decided what sin would be defined as, then once adam 'sinned', he cursed all of adams descendants to sin, grow old and die.).
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defender of truth
Why did Jehovah not destroy Satan? is a talk on this weeks ministry school..
My points regarding this, from the OP:
"Why did He not simply kill, render speechless or even just ignore the other doctor (Satan) who challenged Him?
Let me guess, because it wouldn't prove the other doctor wrong?
If some sadistic man said to you, 'Hey, I bet that.. if you were to give me your children, each one for an undefined time, maybe just for a day or maybe for over a hundred years..
I want to emotionally and physically torture them, cause them to suffer infinite types of agony whilst they call to you for help, and you would have to ignore their tears and pleas for rescue.. whilst you stand there and watch it all happen.. I bet they wouldn't still love you, think you are the best and most loving parent possible, and do anything you say throughout that time. Don't worry though, you can have them back and bring them to life, even give them eternal life when I'm through with them.. just as long as they are one of the few that will pass the test, or you'll have to leave them dead for giving up on you and being disloyal'.
..What would you do? Especially bearing in mind that this guy (Satan) had already tried to get your kids to do something that would get them killed, right in front of you (think 'story of the forbidden fruit', they were told they would die and Satan knew that, so he effectively tried to get them killed, bear with me here).
Even if he wouldn't shut up, would you feel that you HAD TO prove the guy wrong? Or would you: restrain him in some way/ignore him/render him unconscious/kill him? Surely you'd do anything but accept the challenge..
Would your sense of 'fairness' and 'justice' cause you to feel that you had NO CHOICE except to settle the issue with that sadistic man once and for all?"